loss of spark

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dave c
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Re: loss of spark

Postby dave c » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:15 pm

Your so right ced I think my previous post was a knee jerk reaction to my lack of ability to do these electrical tests. any way a mate of mine the guy that owns the 1200gs is an electrician by trade and is willing to help me, but he is just about to go off to Italy for a week (lucky sod) but on his return I will get him to read your test advice and see if we can make some progress, so keep an eye on my post. in a week or so.
I have other bikes I need to mot a Suzuki I have been renovating a gs650g Katana she's nearly finished and I am now retired and only use the bike for pleasure.
Just one last question I have now printed off a wiring diagram of an 1150rt should be roughly the same as mine, the motronic unit has 23 connections but numbers run to 35 are they marked on the unit as I want to test continuity from hall sensor to motronic unit.
Thanks for your patience. Dave.

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Re: loss of spark

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:07 pm

Hi Dave,

Yes, electrical faults can be so frustrating as you cannot properly 'see' what is going without using a test meter and need to know how the circuit under test works in order to know what to test and form a diagnosis.

This is where a forum is so valuable as there is always someone with appropriate expertise that can help out no matter what your skill level.

The forum help was invaluable to me when my HES failed a few years back.

Your electrician friend will be a great asset in helping with the diagnosis.
It is just a matter of collecting enough data through testing to determine where the fault lies.

The R1150RT wiring diagram will be pretty similar to the R1150R (which doesn't have the Rider Information Display (RID) or the electric windshield) as long as it is for the single-spark model.

I like to use Doug Raymond's ladder type diagrams for the R1100RT and R1150RT models as they are easy to use.
I will post the link to these here later on:
Here it is: https://www.mac-pac.org/tech/electrical-diagrams/

All electrical multi-connectors on the BMW bikes have their pin numbers marked in very small lettering on the inside and outside of the connector body and visible under a magnifying glass against the internal wire connections and the external mating faces.
CAUTION: Do NOT test for wire continuity with any electronic modules i.e. ECU, HES, connected as a Test Meter set to the Resistance range puts out a voltage which may damage electronic components.

There is a retaining clip at the bottom of the ECU connector which needs to be unclipped before the connector can be disconnected.

Obtain a can of Contact Cleaner spray (Halfords) for cleaning connector pins/sockets.

I'll watch for any further posts from you and there are also many other experienced members on the forum likely watching this thread and able to assist as well.

Enjoy your retirement - I have been retired for 15 years now and still wonder how I had time to work! :lol:


PS: Something easy to check while waiting for your mate to come back from hols:

TEST A
1. Connect a Voltmeter (set 12v DC) across the Battery terminals with the Ignition OFF - it should read around 12.5v.
2. Now, switch the Ignition ON - the voltage should NOT fall below 12.0v.
3. Now, keeping a close eye on the Voltmeter, crank over the engine - the voltage should NOT fall below 9.6v WHILE cranking (you are looking for the MINIMUM voltage which shows on the meter and it might be tricky to see depending on what type of meter is being used - repeat this test if unsure about the actual minimum reading observed).

TEST B
It is possible for the Motronic ECU to 'Lock-Out' under certain fault or test conditions.
To ensure that this has not happened, carry out the following action:
1. Remove Fuse #5 for 10 minutes, then re-install the fuse & try starting the bike/checking the spark.
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" - It works!

dave c
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Re: loss of spark

Postby dave c » Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:37 pm

OK ced got that, will try tomorrow. and yes that's the diagram I printed as it looked easy to read. and by the way the meter I am using is from tool station and cost me £22 I thought good value for money it even has a temperature testing lead. Dave.

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Re: loss of spark

Postby Mjolinor » Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:48 pm

Why don't you fill in your location?

Maybe someone is local that can help in person.

dave c
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Re: loss of spark

Postby dave c » Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:42 pm

Well mj one always lives in hope, but I have some good friends who I hope can help me sort my problem. I have done those tests and results are battery voltage 12.79 volts with ignition on 12.65 volts. and cranking over 11.00 volts but this is with plugs removed so no strain on starter motor.
I have had a look for numbers on the E.C.U and cant see any at all there are 17 pins on the top row and 18 pins on the bottom row so I have numbered them 1-17 top and 18-35 bottom looking from rear wheel. now I also did a continuity test from the H.E.S to E.C.U there are 5 wires the red goes to pin 32 the orange goes to pin 5 the brown goes to pin 34 the black goes to pin 6 and the final wire a sort of dull white or grey goes to pin 2. so no breaks there.
And the last thing I did was a O. B. D test which is still giving me H.E.S signal failure. Dave.

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Re: loss of spark

Postby dave c » Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:50 pm

Just to throw something in the air I hope these H.E.S are tested before they are shipped it could be possible this is a dud. I did buy a switch from motorworks for my old r1100r and it didn't work but it was used so I guess that wasn't checked. I am tempted to buy a second-hand E.C.U from James sherlock they are tested and come with a 6 month warranty. if it still doesn't work at least I have a spare as previously mentioned they are not made any more. Dave.

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Galactic Greyhound
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Re: loss of spark

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:43 pm

The bike battery is OK based on the voltage readings taken - I was wondering if cranking the engine was dropping the battery voltage too much.

The ECU connector should be marked with the pin numbers - usually the top and bottom pins in each row are marked - this is certainly so on the wiring side of the pins (take cover off the connector) but I am sure the outside mating faces are marked similarly - use a magnifying glass on both the plug and the socket.

The OBD HES test results can be misleading when the engine is stopped - try taking the OBD reading while the engine is being cranked over.

Did you disconnect Fuse #5 for 10 minutes to clear any 'lock-out' on the Motronic ECU?

Re your following post:

It IS possible that your new HES is faulty BUT consider this:
The engine stopped sparking after being worked on, the original HES was working OK prior to that.
A new HES was fitted but still there are no sparks.
It does NOT look like the HES is faulty - you can easily test the original by wiring it up to a 9v dry battery or the bike battery as per the diagram/instructions in Dana Hager's photoguide and inserting a feeler gauge in the HES slots - you need to have a 12v LED to do this (from Ebay, Electronics shop, Motor Factor etc - note a 12V LED is needed, not the usual 2v LEDs).

It is VERY unlikely that your Motronic MA2.4 ECU has failed.

More diagnostic tests need to be carried out before you can reach this conclusion - do you wish to proceed with these now or wait for your mate to come back from holiday?

Whatever, pull out Fuse #5 for 10 minutes in case the ECU has somehow gone into lock-out then replace the fuse and see if the plugs are sparking.

I am NOT happy with the test results on your HT Coil - you should have got a good plug spark when tapping an earth on the Primary winding:
With +12v on the Green wire end of the Primary winding, tap an earth onto the other end of the Primary winding.
This will cause a current to flow which will build up a magnetic field around the Secondary winding.
DISCONNECT the tapped earth from the Primary winding - the magnetic field will collapse and induce a high voltage (around 15 thousand volts) into the Secondary winding causing the plug to give a GOOD spark.
NOTE that the plug spark should occur each time you BREAK the earth connection to the Primary winding.
CAUTION: Do NOT keep the earth connected for too long or the HT Coil will overheat!!!

Is an Alarm/Immobiliser fitted?
What is the bike mileage?
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" - It works!

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Re: loss of spark

Postby dave c » Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:26 pm

There is no alarm/immobiliser the mileage 80k. I will redo coil test tomorrow. cheers. Dave.

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Re: loss of spark

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:41 pm

If it was the original HES it was well overdue to be changed by 80,000 miles so no money wasted in fitting the new HES.

Keep the old HES for examination and possible rewiring over the winter and for subsequent use as a spare.

Pull the Fuse #5 for 10 minutes first in case the ECU is locked out then see if it is sparking normally.

If still no spark, measure the Coil Primary current when testing if you can - don't keep the current flowing too long or the coil will overheat.

Also as a double-check, measure the resistance of the Coil Primary.
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" - It works!

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george baker
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Re: loss of spark

Postby george baker » Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:05 am

Hi Ced

I have never see Doug Raymond's ladder type diagrams for the R1100RT and R1150RT models before, they look really easy to follow

Looking at https://www.mac-pac.org/wp-content/uplo ... m-V3_3.pdf there are 2 HES and I wondered if
* they are interchangeable-- or if they are both in the same package
* if Dave has replaced them both
* sould he test them independently from this bike? You have posted a link to http://users.rcn.com/dehager/service/oi ... ng_box.pdf before

George
Member 21, R100R, K75 and a Hyosung 250 FOR SALE

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Re: loss of spark

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:44 am

Hi George,

Yes, Doug Raymond's ladder type diagrams for the R1100RT and the R1150RT are easy to use and very useful.

Doug is also very approachable via email and I have collaborated with him in the past.

The two HES sensors in the Ignition Trigger Unit are the same part number and so are interchangeable.

One sensor is fitted at the top of the unit for sending the Ignition pulses to the ECU and the other sensor at the bottom for sending the fuelling pulses to the ECU.

The Trigger Unit comprises of both sensors rivetted to a metal plate with a short sub-harness and connector.

Current testing is looking at whether the HES outputs are being transmitted to and acted on by the Motronic ECU - this is yet incomplete.

The unit can be bench tested and this is on the cards for the original unit which is very likely suffering from the wiring degradation problem but may not yet have failed completely.
A new unit has been fitted but still no sparking.

Also, the HT coil requires further testing to determine if it is working - Dave will be looking at this further today.
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" - It works!

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Re: loss of spark

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:32 pm

Hi Dave,

I am now advocating that when testing an HT Coil by tapping an earth on/off on the Primary, that a series capacitor (condensor) of around 0.25 uF 600v working is used.

This is the same setup as on Points Ignition and allows a more realistic coil test by enhancing the HT voltage and spark duration due to the Capacitor forming a series-resonant circuit with the coil Primary.

It is therefore a good move to purchase one of these Ignition Condensors (Capacitors) when HT Coil testing is contemplated.(Ebay/Halfords/Motor Factor - Ignition Condensors -£3)

The Capacitor has one end connected to the earthy side of the coil/s under test and the other end connected to earth.
The 'tapping' wire has one end connected to earth and the other end 'taps' this earth onto the earthy end of the coil/s Primary winding to which one end of the Capacitor is connected.

This allows the Capacitor to be charged by the Primary winding to between 200 - 300 volts by the collapsing magnetic field as the points/tapping wire breaks the Primary circuit and causes faster collapse of the magnetic field so generating a higher Secondary voltage.

The Secondary/Primary turns ratio is around 100:1 so 300v on the Primary appears as 30,000 (30kv) volts on the Secondary giving a good high energy spark.

When the Capacitor is fully charged, it then discharges back into the Primary in a resonant 'ringing' effect which increases the energy and duration of the spark.

This is a much better way of testing the spark from an HT Coil.
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" - It works!

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george baker
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Re: loss of spark

Postby george baker » Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:17 pm

Hi
thanks Ced
G
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Re: loss of spark

Postby dave c » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:49 pm

Hi ced latest up date, I made a little coil testing machine yesterday it comprises of a set of points from my gl1000 gold wing (I always said its best not to throw old parts away) a condenser from a 2cv Citroen (I inherited a lomax from my father when he passed away) and a variety of meccano parts with a small electric motor. I did a little video on my phone but I don't think I can upload to here. Any way it works a treat I have a little plastic cam made from a broken meccano wheel which triggers the points when the motor is turned on. And I have to say the coil is working fine in fact better than some old Honda coils I have from a ntv 650.
So I have e-mailed Motorworks to check if they have had any problems with these pattern units and I have also asked James Sherlock (a BMW specialist from Devon) if I can buy an E.C.U from him and if it still doesn't cure my problem I can return it as I don't want the bill for this job to escalate too much more.

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Re: loss of spark

Postby Mike D » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:01 pm

if I can buy an E.C.U from him and if it still doesn't cure my problem I can return it
You can usually do that with Motorworks.

Mike

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Re: loss of spark

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:25 pm

Hi Dave,

Good to hear that the HT Coil is testing OK on your coil-testing machine - very inventive!

You might try removing the Condensor to compare the spark before and after to see how much the spark is affected.

The pattern HES can be tested on the bike as per the method in Dana Hager's link given previously and by rotating the crankshaft pulley.
There will be no problems with crumbling wiring insulation on a new unit so it either works or not.

Have you pulled that Fuse #5 (Motronic) for 10 minutes and rechecked for firing/spark?

There are still further tests outstanding re the HES and the Motronic ECU before the diagnosis can be completed.
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" - It works!

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Re: loss of spark

Postby dave c » Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:03 pm

Yes I tried pulling the fuse didn't change the problem, so I have thrown some more cash at it and ordered an E.C.U, from James sherlock, I don't think there is any thing else I can replace. Dave.

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Re: loss of spark

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:48 pm

Replacing suspected components willy nilly is not the best way to fault a circuit - suppose it is a broken wire? - the fault might never be found with this method of diagnosis.

Fault diagnosis requires logical testing of the circuit function and then analysing the test results as to the possible cause of the malfunction.

Only at that point may it be necessary to replace a component for substitution test purposes.

Replacing parts willy nilly without proper diagnosis is a very expensive and often unsuccesful practice. #-o

If it doesn't work out you will have learned a hard lesson in electrical testing but fingers crossed that it does work out OK.

Let us know how it goes - the forum is still here for you! :smile:
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" - It works!

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Re: loss of spark

Postby dave c » Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:25 am

Well I feel like a naughty school boy perhaps I need to stay for detention but you are perfectly right ced sticking the E.C.U on just made a difference to my bank account still no spark!!!!. I think I probably did in in frustration and desperation at not getting any results.
So I need to think more logically. I am going to state some points and see if you agree.
The side stand switch operation only affects the starter motor not the ignition ?
The coil has been tested so I am confident that's O K.
The Hall sensor is brand new (but not tested) so I might test my old one as suggested, and if its O K refit it and test the new one.
The E.C.U has been swopped for a tested unit with 6 months warranty so this should be fine.
So where do we go from here is there any other components that can fail or are we looking for a broken wire or a corroded connector ?
My friend should be back soon and I will get him to read through the posts, and see if he can perhaps get some guidance from you if that's O K.
Many thanks, Dave.

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Galactic Greyhound
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Re: loss of spark

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:54 pm

OK - sorry to hear that it did not work out with the ECU but you now have a spare ECU which is worth something at least. :sad:

All power is down here due to the storm so I am unable to access wiring diagrams and files for the moment.

However, to answer your first question:

You need to check that the Motronic Relay is operating - use a screwdriver against the relay to your ear or feel it gently with your fingertips.

The Motronic Relay should operate IMMEDIATELY the Ignition is switched On and stay operated till the Ignition is switched Off.

The Motronic Relay coil is connected in series with the Sidestand Switch so if the Sidestand Switch is faulty the Motronic Relay operation can be affected.

The Sidestand Switch operates the Motronic Relay directly to earth when the Sidestand is UP and, when the Sidestand is DOWN, the Motronic Relay is operated to earth only when the gearbox is in Neutral via the Sidestand Switch and the Neutral Switch.

The Sidestand Switch acts like a 2-way (changeover) switch in the Up/Down positions.

The Sidestand Switch RED wire is the +12v via (in series with) the Motronic Relay coil (When this wire is connected to earth the Motronic Relay will operate).
The Sidestand Switch BROWN wire is an Earth wire which is connected to the RED wire when the Sidestand is UP.
The Sidestand Switch WHITE wire is connected to the RED wire and via a Diode to the Neutral Switch earth when the Sidestand is DOWN.

The Motronic Relay MUST be operated before the Fuel and Ignition circuits can work (these are Motronic ECU controlled circuits).

If the Motronic Relay can be heard to operate with the Sidestand BOTH Up and Down in turn, don't assume it is working OK - the Motronic Relay contact may have failed - this will be the next test when I have got power restored here (hopefully!) :smile:

The HES can be tested in situ from the Connector so get hold of a 12v LED and a 9v dry battery (smoke alarm type) and a 9v battery terminal connector for testing on the bike or the bench.

Also, make up a Test Bulb (12v 21W [Indicator Bulb]) using a holder or the wires soldered to the bulb.
Make each of the two wires 1 metre long with a croc clip on the end.
This will be used to load test circuits when voltage checking and is better than using a Voltmeter.
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" - It works!

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Re: loss of spark

Postby c13pep » Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:41 pm

I have been following this thread with some interest not least because of CEDs input all of which I have recorded for future reference, however there is a saying from my day ( I`m 72) "always check the last thing you did to the bike and if that doesn`t work then check it again" especially if the bike was running well. This advice relates not only to the original starter motor replacement but what you did beforehand and after ie. removing panels etc. even dropping bolts or nuts down crevices etc. even non descript jobs like removing the seat, just think back to exactly what you did (in my case I once left a wire off the battery which couldn`t be seen on reassembly but I spent 3 days trying to cure a self inflicted fault including carb strips, ignition checks etc. the language was atrocious ](*,)
CHRIS

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Re: loss of spark

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:08 pm

Hi Chris,

I remember that saying well and I'm just a little older than you at 75!

The Sidestand electrics appear to have been last worked on and that is the reason for going back to the beginning and checking the Motronic Relay operation even though Dave has swapped it for the same type Horn Relay and was getting Fuel Pump priming OK - time to take things slow and steady now! :smile:
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" - It works!


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