no spark update and nem purchase plus which manual

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no spark update and nem purchase plus which manual

Postby dave c » Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:26 pm

Hi guys I haven't been on here for some time, as I still have no spark on my r1150r so I decided to buy a rough r1150rs that has brake issues but I am assured it runs. so what I intend to do is get it running (fingers crossed) and swop parts from the R to the RS and eliminate faulty parts and replace them. there are a couple of questions I need to ask the dash is showing brake failure and I believe there is a correct way of bleeding the brakes as this is an iABS system and its about time I bought a manual especially as I now own two of these bikes. is there much difference in the Haynes and the Clymer manual as there is a big difference in price. or does any one have a second hand one I can buy from you. hope you can answer my questions. Dave.

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Re: no spark update and nem purchase plus which manual

Postby dave c » Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:27 pm

sorry that should read new purchase.

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Re: no spark update and nem purchase plus which manual

Postby keiththeoutfitter1 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:33 pm

R1200RT
K1100RS + EZS Rally Sidecar
Kawasaki Versys 650

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Re: no spark update and nem purchase plus which manual

Postby dave c » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:17 pm

yes a good link Keith its the official BMW dealer site and they use a lot of specialist tools to perform this task, gosh what a faff and such a complicated system I can see why a lot of people do away with this system, I owned a r1150rs a while back the clutch and input shaft needed replacement but the previous owner had removed this system and the brakes were fine. any way I will give this a try and if its too difficult I might look up how to remove it. Dave.

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Re: no spark update and nem purchase plus which manual

Postby einstein » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:21 pm

Removing the "whizzy" brakes is straightforward, and there is an easy way of sorting the electrical side, by keeping the electronic part, insulating the back of it, and then reconnecting to the bike, leaving the servo unit off the bike.. this way you need no relays or additional wiring.. it just works as it should. you may need to remove the annoying ABS warning bulbs.

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Re: no spark update and nem purchase plus which manual

Postby dave c » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:45 pm

I have just watched a you tube video made by a guy I think he is from Gloucestershire who calls himself superbike surgery tv and he does a complete removal of an ABS system on an R850R he uses parts from motorworks but I think the small loop of brake tubing could easily be made up using the pipe and fittings that are already on the bike plus he swaps the brake light switches over but I think inline pressure switches with some extra wiring should do the trick.

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Re: no spark update and nem purchase plus which manual

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:18 pm

Dave,

As it was your intention to use this rough bike to parts swap onto your better bike in order to get it running again then it is not necessary to sort out the iABS-1 braking system on the rough bike.

I think that you should assume that the iABS on the rough bike is best removed if you ever want to put it on the road and concentrate on getting the rough bike engine to run in order that you can swap parts over to get your better bike running.

You do NOT need the iABS to be working in order to get the engine running.

Once you have the better bike running you can consider doing a Servectomy on the rough bike to get a better selling price for it or keep it.

From what I remember of your lengthy previous thread regarding the better bike problem, you do not have a garage and are working outside.

You should therefore focus entirely on the mission target and try and get the rough bike engine running so that your better bike can be got back on the road as quickly as possible before the Winter weather returns and compromises the outdoor work.

Further, looking back at your original thread, I do feel that you should do a GS911 scan on the better bike irrespective of whether you get the rough bike running or not.

This GS911 scan will identify the problem area pretty clearly and save hours of work.

I would therefore advise you to join the BMW Club UK for around £40 and then take advantage of their Tool Hire Service which includes a GS911 scanner for around £5 + p&p.

There are a few BMW Club Members on this forum who can perhaps advise you further about this Service and confirm the prices given.
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
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Re: no spark update and nem purchase plus which manual

Postby dave c » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:44 pm

always wise words from you Ced, I have actually got this bike running now (with a jump pack and a slave petrol tank fitted with pump) the engine sounds good its a year newer than the 1150r and has 15k less miles on the clock and with a servo/abs ectomy it might be an ok bike. but as you say it will be the test bed for parts from the 1150r I will take one part at a time from the 1150r and fit it to the 1150rs and see if it runs I think I will start with the coil then the ecu and see if the readings from the hall sensor are the same on both bikes. but at the moment very pleased with my purchase its quite a good bike (complete with panniers) for £628 yes I couldn't believe it either bit of a steal so pretty chuffed at the moment. going to buy a Haynes manual to see how to bleed the iABS if I don't have any luck its all coming off. Dave.

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Re: no spark update and nem purchase plus which manual

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:55 pm

Hi Dave,

From the original thread, the integrity of the Hall Effect Sensor (HES) [aka Ignition Trigger Unit] was in question but at the time it was not possible to accurately measure the HES Ignition pulses being presented to the Engine Control Unit (ECU) to confirm if the HES was working correctly or not.
We did do a rough voltage check at the time to compare the ECU HES Ignition pulse input mean voltage with Fuel pulse input mean voltage and the readings were the same so it was better than nothing but still inconclusive results to say that the HES was definitely OK or not.

The GS911 should be able to do this by reading out any such Fault Code from the ECU and it should be possible to view the HES pulses (Ignition + Fuel) with the GS911 using the live sensor data mode.

The HES is therefore one of the parts which would need to be changed over if determining the fault (no spark) by part-swapping.

Bear in mind that it may not be a PART that is faulty but the WIRING or CONNECTOR associated with it! - Inspect all Connector wiring and the Connector pins carefully - pull back gently on the connector wiring to make sure it is attached to the pins and check that no pins have retracted down into the connector so that they are not mating with their other halves.


iABS-1 (ABS3) BRAKE BLEEDING

I don't think that the Haynes or the Clymer gives much data on the iABS-1 (ABS3) Brake Bleeding.

Here is a link to a PDF photo-guide article by Dana Hager on the subject:

http://users.rcn.com/dehager/service/service_abs3.pdf


SERVECTOMY

Here is a link to the ABS-1 (ABS3) Servectomy procedure:

https://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthrea ... ABS-system

For the mechanical/hydraulic part, study the first part of the thread BUT - DO NOT CUT ANY WIRES! *

Before doing anything, check to see if the Tail and Brake lights are working - if so, then there is a good chance that the ABS ECU is OK.


* Providing that the ABS Electronic Control Unit (ECU) is functioning, it can be retained to make the electrical work very much simpler - SEE THE LATER POST #195 by Dr Farkoff, 09-03-18:
https://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthrea ... tem/page13

If the ABS ECU is not functional or missing, you can either obtain a used working ABS ECU or do the Servectomy electrical work by cutting wires as per the first part of the thread.


That 'rough' bike was a good buy! - you may come out of this with a good bike and a profit yet! :grin:
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" - It works!

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Re: no spark update and nem purchase plus which manual

Postby dave c » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:49 pm

Well I have made great progress with my new acquisition. I cleaned up the discs fitted new pads and bled the system and it works, yippee!!! I been giving it a general tidy up, but still cant get used to those tilt down handlebars, I might do something about that. Any way I have tried some of the electrical parts from my no spark 1150r and both coils work (one I bought on eBay) and one of the E.C.U.s works (the one I also bought on eBay) my original E.C.U that I sent to Mjoliner does not work, so I am thinking my electrical surge that started this fault blew the main components in this unit.

So I have refitted a good coil and the working E.C.U. and see if it starts. I don't think it will so I am then faced with do I swop the new hall sensor to the new bike and see if it works? this does worry me as I am messing with a good runner, or just put it back together and get rid of it? Dave.

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Re: no spark update and nem purchase plus which manual

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:12 pm

I am not clear on what you are doing here:

What year/month is your original R1150R and the new R1150RS?

Are you transferring suspect parts from your non-running R1150R and your Ebay parts stock to the newly acquired running R1150RS to check if these parts are working thereby proving the transferred part functional?

If so, then it would appear you have transferred the following with the given results:
1. The R1150R original HT coil - Working.
2. The Ebay HT Coil - Working,
3. The R1150R original Motronic ECU - NOT Working.
4. The Ebay Motronic ECU - Working.

The problem with the 'swapping parts' method of fault-finding is that it will not show up wiring faults.
IIRC, you had wiring problems at the very beginning and there appeared to be an intermittent case where the Ignition worked briefly until you tidied up the wiring and it hasn't worked again since.

Now, regarding the original R1150R ECU shown as 'NOT WORKING' in (3) above, the reason it may not have worked on your R1150RS is that the original ECU is coded for an R1150R and NOT an R1150RS.
I do not know if the Motronic ECU is coded and/or wired for different models or not but, FOR EXAMPLE ONLY, a coding and wiring situation appears to exist for the ABS2 ECU - see http://www.largiader.com/abs/absfault.html Section 'ABS2 differences between models'.

I have always advocated that when swapping Motronic or ABS units then the swap should always have come from the same year/model of bike i.e. R, RS or RT to avoid any compatibility/coding/wiring problems.

This MAY mean that swapping the original 'R' ECU into the working 'RS' is an invalid test because the swapped ECU is not coded or wired correctly for the RS model.
Also, the R1150 models went from Single-spark to Twin-spark from December 2002 which may use different Motronic ECUs - you can check this on the RealOEM Parts Fiche - you need to ensure that the ECUs are compatible with the spark-system (Single or Twin) used.


Next, re the Ebay Motronic ECU in (4) above, what year/model did this come from; R1150R, R1150RS or R1150RT?
As stated above, the reason it may have worked in the 'RS' is because it IS an 'RS' coded ECU but it MAY NOT work on your original 'R' bike.
You can only try it and see what happens.
If it does NOT work, then it may just be because it is not coded/wired for the 'R' model rather than something else being wrong with the original 'R' bike.

This coding/wiring enigma is a bit of a problem as you cannot be sure that the original 'R' Motronic ECU is faulty or not because you may not have a working 'R' Motronic ECU to test with unless you can prove that there is no coding/wiring/spark-system issue by getting one of the bikes to run with the 'other' Motronic ECU.

Check that the BMW Part Numbers on your original 'R' Motronic ECU and the Ebay 'RS' Motronic ECU are the same.
If they are the same, the 'RS' ECU may work 'as is' or it may have to be 're-coded' to work on an 'R' model - I don't know - you can only try it and see.

Maybe have a word with Motorworks/James Sherlock about this issue (i.e. will an 'RS' Motronic ECU work on an 'R' bike without recoding/rewiring?) if no-one here can shed further light on this.
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" - It works!

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Re: no spark update and nem purchase plus which manual

Postby dave c » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:54 am

Hi Ced yes I am flailing around in the dark as per usual, I have the bike back from my mates now and he cant quite believe he could not make any progress with it, he did lots of tests and everything seemed to check out so he seemed quite deflated that he couldn't help me.

So yes I have probably got the wrong motronic unit for my model the correct motronic unit for the r1150r is 7 667 285 the unit I bought on eBay is
1 342 935 and was advertised (possibly wrongly) as fitting a 1999 rs/rt/gs I cant see it fits all these but it works on my rs and only cost £27 so at very least its a good spare for that bike. I agree these units are vastly different as some bikes have ABS but the basic wiring should be the same and basic bikes just use fewer connections, but the main difference is possibly the mapping which would not affect the firing of the bike more the timing and fuel mixture.

Your suggestion of joining the club and hiring a gs911 is very good how do I do that? If it comes up with the same diagnosis as my moto scan as hall sensor defect (baring in mind its a brand new unit from motorworks) perhaps I should return it and get them to test it?

It seems I am just throwing more and more money at this bike and getting nowhere its giving me such a dilemma.

Dave.

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Re: no spark update and nem purchase plus which manual

Postby Mike D » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:10 pm

Hi Dave,

You can join the BMW club online (£32 per year).


Your Moto Scan should be able to perform some/most of the test of a GS-911 (however the GS-911 is in my opinion easier to use). The recording of Hall sensor faults is normal (same happens with the GS-911 until you rotate the engine).

Where did you get the codes for the Motronic Unit as the part number on Max BMW is 13617658614 and fits the 1150R, RS, RT,GS.

Mike

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Re: no spark update and nem purchase plus which manual

Postby dave c » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:12 pm

Hi Mike, max bmw that's an American company isn't it do you just use them as a reference? The number you stated is that a part number as I am just looking at the 7 digit number on the label on the casing. any way I have just bought another ECU online from same model and year as my bike with the same 7 digit number as my original ECU 7 667 285 and I will fit that. then join the club and rent the gs911 and take it from there. Dave.

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Re: no spark update and nem purchase plus which manual

Postby Mike D » Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:28 pm

MaxBMW is an American site, but it still has the in formation for Euro spec machines. If you go to the site and put the last seven digits of your vehicle VIN number, then the results will be specific to that machine. There is also REALOEM, which provides the same information, but the search is different.

The number I gave was the BMW part number. BMW part numbers are 11 digits long. For example putting the last seven digits of my R1150RT VIN number shows an ECU for single spark bikes being P/N 13 61 7 658 614 (and shows the date as up to 12/02 (December 2002). The dual spark ECU is 13 61 7 658 618 and dated as from 12/02. So two different variants depending on single or twin spark.

The seven digit number on your ECU is possibly the manufacturer's number.

It's up to you whether you wish to join the BMW Club. I administer the tool hire facility, and would be glad to sort out a GS-911, but I'm not on here to drum up members, just trying to help a fellow BMW rider solve their bike problems.

Mike

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Re: no spark update and nem purchase plus which manual

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:56 pm

You can find the RealOEM Parts Catalogue in the link below:
https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/select
Note that there are TWO Search Boxes:
1. The SERIAL NO box is for the last 7 digits of your VIN and provides all the Part Diagrams and Parts Numbers for that specific VIN.
2. The PART NUMBER APPLICATION SEARCH box is to see what application a 7 or 11 digit Part Number has been used for.

Using the RealOEM BMW Parts Catalogue, Part Number Search Box, Dave's original 1150R Motronic ECU Part Number '7 667 285' (OLD 7-digit Part Numbering System) comes up under the NEW 11-digit Part Number System as:

13617667285
Control unit motronic
MA2.4
From:
09/25/2001
To:
08/18/2004 (ENDED)
Weight:
0.632 kg
Price:
$1325.14
Superseded by:
13617658614
(04/01/2004 — ), Exchangeable retrospectively
Supersedes:
13617654244
(02/01/2000 — 10/30/2002), Exchangeable retrospectively
13617655474
(02/01/2000 — 09/23/2003), Exchangeable retrospectively
13611342935
(09/01/1999 — 12/17/1999)

The specified part was not found


Using the RealOEM BMW Parts Catalogue, Part Number Search Box, Dave's EBAY1150RS Motronic ECU Part Number '1 342 935' (OLD 7-digit Part Numbering System) comes up under the NEW 11-digit Part Number System as:

13611342935
Control unit motronic
From:
09/01/1999
To:
12/17/1999 (ENDED)
Weight:
0.642 kg
Price:
$1106.48
Superseded by:
13617655474
(02/01/2000 — 09/23/2003), Exchangeable retrospectively
13617654244
(02/01/2000 — 10/30/2002), Exchangeable retrospectively
13617667285
(09/25/2001 — 08/18/2004), Exchangeable retrospectively
13617658614
(04/01/2004 — ), Exchangeable retrospectively

The specified part was not found.


In BOTH cases above, the original Part Number has been superseded by a later but DIFFERENT Part Number (see the 'superseded by' data).
In BOTH cases above, the SUPERSEDING Part Number can replace the original Part Number (Exchangeable retrospectively).

Looking at the given Motronic ECU Part Numbers they are BOTH different between the R1150R and the R1150RS.

However, to add confusion (!), if you click on the LATEST BLUE superseding Part Number you will get the Applications for that part.
In the case of the original 7 667 285 ECU superseded by 13 61 7 658 614, you get:
Part 13617658614 was found on the following vehicles:
R21 (R 1150 GS)   (09/1998 — 11/2003)
R21 (R 1150 GS Adventure)   (07/2001 — 09/2005)
R28 (R 850 R, R 1150 R, Rockster)   (11/1999 — 06/2006)
R22 (R 850 RT, R 1150 RT, R 1150 RS)   (01/2000 — 03/2006)
The above showing the R1150R.

In the case of the EBAY RS ECU 1 342 935 superseded by 13 61 7 655 474, you can see that this superseding ECU ...474 is itself also superseded by the same 13 61 7 658 614 in 04/01/20014 !!!
13617655474
Control unit motronic
MA2.4
From:
02/01/2000
To:
09/23/2003 (ENDED)
Weight:
0.642 kg
Price:
$1276.73
Superseded by:
13617654244
(02/01/2000 — 10/30/2002), Exchangeable retrospectively
13617667285
(09/25/2001 — 08/18/2004), Exchangeable retrospectively
13617658614
(04/01/2004 — ), Exchangeable retrospectively
Supersedes:
13611342935
(09/01/1999 — 12/17/1999)
The specified part was not found.

I am not clear what is going on here but it may be that the latest ECU 13617658614 will work with both the R1150R and the R1150RS as it supersedes both of these ECUs.
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" - It works!

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Re: no spark update and nem purchase plus which manual

Postby Mike D » Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:21 am

I am not clear what is going on here but it may be that the latest ECU 13617658614 will work with both the R1150R and the R1150RS as it supersedes both of these ECUs.
Hi Ced,

As I understand it ECU 13617658614 will work on both models, but only the single spark version. Refer to ECU is 13 61 7 658 618 for the twin spark models.

Mike

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Re: no spark update and nem purchase plus which manual

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:07 am

I am not clear what is going on here but it may be that the latest ECU 13617658614 will work with both the R1150R and the R1150RS as it supersedes both of these ECUs.
Hi Ced,

As I understand it ECU 13617658614 will work on both models, but only the single spark version. Refer to ECU is 13 61 7 658 618 for the twin spark models.

Mike

Thanks for the clarification Mike! :smile:
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" - It works!

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Re: no spark update and nem purchase plus which manual

Postby george baker » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:35 am

Hi Mike
It's up to you whether you wish to join the BMW Club. I administer the tool hire facility, and would be glad to sort out a GS-911, but I'm not on here to drum up members, just trying to help a fellow BMW rider solve their bike problems.
I have no problem with you telling people about the BMW Club, we know you are not on here to drum up members and your advice is always appreciated

George
Member 21, R100R, and an unused K75

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Re: no spark update and nem purchase plus which manual

Postby Mike D » Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:48 pm

Cheers George.

Mike

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Re: no spark update and nem purchase plus which manual

Postby Boxer11002198 » Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:41 am

" have refitted a good coil and the working E.C.U. and see if it starts. I don't think it will so I am then faced with do I swop the new hall sensor to the new bike and see if it works? "
Personally, I dont think that replacement of more than 1 part at a time is a good idea.
1/ you dont know which part helped the situation
2/ you dont know whether the part you have spare is good or bad for future use.
R1100RT 1996 19000miles Fom new at purchase .Now 32000 @ 31/8/19
Triumph Sprint ST 2001 Sold
BMW K1100RS 1995 Sold. Should have kept it & sorted leaky front brake cyl !!
Triumph Bonneville T140v 1973 Wish I had never Sold it !!!

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Re: no spark update and nem purchase plus which manual

Postby Boxer11002198 » Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:42 am

" have refitted a good coil and the working E.C.U. and see if it starts. I don't think it will so I am then faced with do I swop the new hall sensor to the new bike and see if it works? "
Personally, I dont think that replacement of more than 1 part at a time is a good idea.
1/ you dont know which part helped the situation
2/ you dont know whether the part you have spare is good or bad for future use.
R1100RT 1996 19000miles Fom new at purchase .Now 32000 @ 31/8/19
Triumph Sprint ST 2001 Sold
BMW K1100RS 1995 Sold. Should have kept it & sorted leaky front brake cyl !!
Triumph Bonneville T140v 1973 Wish I had never Sold it !!!

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Re: no spark update and nem purchase plus which manual

Postby Galactic Greyhound » Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:06 am

Keep pegging away at it and you will finally get there! :smile:

If, when you have replaced all components with known working parts and it still won't spark, then it can only be a wiring/connector fault.

I seem to remember from way back that you had been working on some wiring and it sparked OK until this wiring was 'tidied' up - this might be worth re-visiting.

LATER EDIT:
The best way of finding this problem is by using a GS911 Diagnostic Tester.
If there is no-one local that can help out then consider joining the BMW Club UK (c. £40) to access their Tool Hire Service which has one (c. £5).

You can spend days swapping over working components but if the problem is a wiring/connector issue you are wasting your time.

A GS911 will tell you what is wrong and this allows you to focus on that specific circuit to determine what might be causing the failure.
From there, you will know exactly what component/s might be swapped and/or what wiring/connectors need to be checked out.
Ced.

R1100RT 1996.
Sent by Boson Quantum Transmission from the Starship 'Galahad'.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... ing_bosons" - It works!


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