Latest Covid 19 News for Motorcyclists in England

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Re: Latest Covid 19 News for Motorcyclists in England

Postby andys » Fri May 15, 2020 12:33 pm



That isn't what I said. If a person is in hospital COVID 19 syptoms and subsequently dies, then there can be little doubt that they have COVID 19. A test really isn't necessary.

Rob
How can you possible say that when the symptoms of CV19 are virtually identical to the common flu.
That's why I used the appendix analogy.
Without proper testing it can be virtually impossible to distinguish from an upset stomach or even trapped wind.
According to this I've had the virus many times in my lifetime
😳
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavir ... -symptoms/

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Re: Latest Covid 19 News for Motorcyclists in England

Postby Mjolinor » Fri May 15, 2020 1:08 pm

Hopefully this will all have cleared up before I die. I would not like to have gout written on my death certificate. :)

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Re: Latest Covid 19 News for Motorcyclists in England

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Fri May 15, 2020 1:39 pm



That isn't what I said. If a person is in hospital COVID 19 syptoms and subsequently dies, then there can be little doubt that they have COVID 19. A test really isn't necessary.

Rob
How can you possible say that when the symptoms of CV19 are virtually identical to the common flu.
That's why I used the appendix analogy.
Without proper testing it can be virtually impossible to distinguish from an upset stomach or even trapped wind.
According to this I've had the virus many times in my lifetime
😳
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavir ... -symptoms/


Those are just the basic 'seek advice' guidelines... I think it's safe to say that, once it gets to stage 2, the symptoms are quite distinctive...

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Re: Latest Covid 19 News for Motorcyclists in England

Postby george baker » Fri May 15, 2020 10:06 pm

Hi
I deleted my previous post because it's content was not well thought out, badly expressed and led 2 other posters into conflict with each other.

F2F my thoughts would have been clarified in 2 sips but the delay of text allowed confusion to develop.

G
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Re: Latest Covid 19 News for Motorcyclists in England

Postby King Herald » Sun May 17, 2020 8:53 am



That isn't what I said. If a person is in hospital COVID 19 syptoms and subsequently dies, then there can be little doubt that they have COVID 19. A test really isn't necessary. As I read it, if there is any doubt, then there is a form of Post Mortem which may just be a test to confirm the presence of the COVID 19 virus. In the unlikely case of a negative result to the test, then a full post mortem will be carried out to determine the cause of death. It's not as if the symptoms of COVID 19 are ambiguous.


Rob

BBC only ever mention that people 'died with Covid' now, not 'died from Covid', which indicates they are rounding up the figures somewhat.
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Re: Latest Covid 19 News for Motorcyclists in England

Postby Mjolinor » Sun May 17, 2020 10:21 am



That isn't what I said. If a person is in hospital COVID 19 syptoms and subsequently dies, then there can be little doubt that they have COVID 19. A test really isn't necessary. As I read it, if there is any doubt, then there is a form of Post Mortem which may just be a test to confirm the presence of the COVID 19 virus. In the unlikely case of a negative result to the test, then a full post mortem will be carried out to determine the cause of death. It's not as if the symptoms of COVID 19 are ambiguous.


Rob

BBC only ever mention that people 'died with Covid' now, not 'died from Covid', which indicates they are rounding up the figures somewhat.
Very generous of you to think that the BBC would know the difference between the two statements.

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Re: Latest Covid 19 News for Motorcyclists in England

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Sun May 17, 2020 11:01 am



That isn't what I said. If a person is in hospital COVID 19 syptoms and subsequently dies, then there can be little doubt that they have COVID 19. A test really isn't necessary. As I read it, if there is any doubt, then there is a form of Post Mortem which may just be a test to confirm the presence of the COVID 19 virus. In the unlikely case of a negative result to the test, then a full post mortem will be carried out to determine the cause of death. It's not as if the symptoms of COVID 19 are ambiguous.


Rob

BBC only ever mention that people 'died with Covid' now, not 'died from Covid', which indicates they are rounding up the figures somewhat.


You're absolutely right, there will be some assumptions and generalisations in the figures given. The point is that there is nothing heinous or about it, it's inevitable. In fact, I think it actually shows they are trying to be more honest and careful about what they report. In many cases, especially where the patient has an underlying health problem, it will be impossible to say anything more than that a patient died and, at the time, they were suffering from a COVID 19 infection which may have (or in some cases probably did) shortened their life. Anything beyond that is a matter of conjecture.

The point can be summed up by this... if a person is in the process of dying from, say, a cut throat and you stab him through the heart at or near the moment of death, it may well be impossible to say with wny certainty whether the actual cause of death was the cut throat or the stab wound. Does it matter? If you're trying to establich who actually committed a murder, it most certainly does!

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Re: Latest Covid 19 News for Motorcyclists in England

Postby andys » Sun May 17, 2020 10:24 pm

[

The point can be summed up by this... if a person is in the process of dying from, say, a cut throat and you stab him through the heart at or near the moment of death, it may well be impossible to say with wny certainty whether the actual cause of death was the cut throat or the stab wound. Does it matter? If you're trying to establich who actually committed a murder, it most certainly does!

Rob
We're talking about a virus, not a murder.
Some time ago I did an asbestos awareness course for work.
Something I learned was that the symptoms of asbestosis can appear identical to lung cancer.
So my question was, if a smoker presents with the symptoms of asbestosis, would a doctor at least try and differentiate between this and smoking related cancer.
The answer I got was most likely not.
If the person was a smoker then it would be assumed that cigarettes were the cause.
No tests, operations or post mortem necessary.
In other words the death can be notched up to smoking, when in fact it may have been something unrelated that was going to kill him eventually anyway even if he hadn't been a smoker.
His death though is added to the smoking stats despite cigarettes not actually being the CAUSE of death.
So just as with covind19, there seems to be a lot of diagnosis through assumption going on leading me to believe that we're not getting the real figures.

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Re: Latest Covid 19 News for Motorcyclists in England

Postby King Herald » Mon May 18, 2020 8:26 am


Very generous of you to think that the BBC would know the difference between the two statements.
I’d wager they use those words specifically because there is a difference. And I’d assume it is typical media vagueness and ambiguity so nobody can come back later and sue them for something they have published. As with all new media, everything they say consists of ‘maybe’, ‘could be’, ‘up to, or possibly more’, ‘suggested that’ etc etc
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Re: Latest Covid 19 News for Motorcyclists in England

Postby Mjolinor » Mon May 18, 2020 11:07 am


Very generous of you to think that the BBC would know the difference between the two statements.
I’d wager they use those words specifically because there is a difference. And I’d assume it is typical media vagueness and ambiguity so nobody can come back later and sue them for something they have published. As with all new media, everything they say consists of ‘maybe’, ‘could be’, ‘up to, or possibly more’, ‘suggested that’ etc etc
Like broadband sales. :)

The BBCs use of the language has gone right to pot in the last 15 years. That's one of the reasons I like to listen to those old videos. The enunciation and the language are perfect, you can hear them the first time through with no doubt as to what they are saying and with the correct use of words there is no ambiguity to what they are meaning either.

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Re: Latest Covid 19 News for Motorcyclists in England

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Mon May 18, 2020 11:53 am

[

The point can be summed up by this... if a person is in the process of dying from, say, a cut throat and you stab him through the heart at or near the moment of death, it may well be impossible to say with wny certainty whether the actual cause of death was the cut throat or the stab wound. Does it matter? If you're trying to establich who actually committed a murder, it most certainly does!

Rob
We're talking about a virus, not a murder.
Some time ago I did an asbestos awareness course for work.
Something I learned was that the symptoms of asbestosis can appear identical to lung cancer.
So my question was, if a smoker presents with the symptoms of asbestosis, would a doctor at least try and differentiate between this and smoking related cancer.
The answer I got was most likely not.
If the person was a smoker then it would be assumed that cigarettes were the cause.
No tests, operations or post mortem necessary.
In other words the death can be notched up to smoking, when in fact it may have been something unrelated that was going to kill him eventually anyway even if he hadn't been a smoker.
His death though is added to the smoking stats despite cigarettes not actually being the CAUSE of death.
So just as with covind19, there seems to be a lot of diagnosis through assumption going on leading me to believe that we're not getting the real figures.


Actually we're talking about death and the cause of death. To address your example:-

1) If the person dies from a breathing related illness, for a doctor to be able to certify cause of death, there must have been a period of treatment leading up to the death. Any doctor who attended that patient would know the history and be pretty sure of the cause of death. The most probable opinion would be a mix of the two causes.

2) If the patient died without treatment or the doctor wasn't able to make a reasoned diagnosis of the cause, then, by law, there would have to be a post mortem and an autopsy. In this sort of case, even where a post mortem took place, it would probably be impossible to determine between the two causes, smoking or asbestosis.

3) In both cases, the 'cause of death' on the death certificate would probably be on the lines of 'Pneumonia brought about by smoking tobacco and exposure to asbestos dust'.

and, yes, that death would be quite rightly added to the smoking statistics (as well as the asbestosis statistics).

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Re: Latest Covid 19 News for Motorcyclists in England

Postby andys » Tue May 19, 2020 2:25 pm



and, yes, that death would be quite rightly added to the smoking statistics (as well as the asbestosis statistics).

Rob
Which is wrong because there is absolutely no way any doctor could state without reservation that the patient would have died purely as a result of smoking.
The fact is that without the asbestos, he or she could have lived into old age.
Anyway all the examples you have given in regard to covid 19 are not necessarily followed.
Chloe Middleton, the 21 year old who it was alleged died as a result of the virus died suddenly. She was not tested and no post mortem was carried out.
It later transpired that no less tragically, she died from a heart attack but because she had a cough, was labelled a covid 19 victim.
This kind of fudging the numbers is despicable but does go on.

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Re: Latest Covid 19 News for Motorcyclists in England

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Tue May 19, 2020 9:53 pm

I do really think you're overstating that one... Chloe Middleton died and the death was reported as COVID19. One newspaper (The Grauniad, needless to say) suggested she might not have died of the virus but later published an apology stating
Chloe's cause of death has been confirmed by "both the family and in a statement on behalf of the Berkshire coroner’s office" as being Covid-19
. The only source for the 'heart attack' theory appears to be said newspaper article and even the Grauniad 'unpublished' it the day after it was published.

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Re: Latest Covid 19 News for Motorcyclists in England

Postby King Herald » Wed May 20, 2020 8:57 am



I don't believe in conspiracy theories... in my considered opinion, they are all dream't up for political reasons or personal gain by an underground group intent on undermining all governments and bringing about the downfall of society as we know it... :smile:

Rob


I have a friend who believes in every conspiracy theory going. 9/11, vaccines, New World Order, people control through non existent viruses etc etc. If there is anything 'anti-establishment' going around, then he signs up for it. I have no idea why certain people have this bitter resentment of the world in general, while they happily live under the umbrella of the protection it gives us all. Those sort of people should try living in a society where you can be shot or jailed for airing your views.
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Re: Latest Covid 19 News for Motorcyclists in England

Postby andys » Wed May 20, 2020 11:42 pm

I do really think you're overstating that one... Chloe Middleton died and the death was reported as COVID19.
That's what I'm saying but the main point is that she was not tested, so the diagnosis was based on pure assumption.
Coming from the background you do, where hard irrefutable evidence rules, I'm utterly amazed you could think this is OK.
Its like saying that because a convicted murderer lives across the street from another murder victim, that they must be the killer.
No investigation or proof necessary.
I never want to live in a third world justice system like that.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-engla ... s-52124004

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Re: Latest Covid 19 News for Motorcyclists in England

Postby andys » Wed May 20, 2020 11:55 pm




I have a friend who believes in every conspiracy theory going. 9/11, vaccines, New World Order, people control through non existent viruses etc etc. If there is anything 'anti-establishment' going around, then he signs up for it. I have no idea why certain people have this bitter resentment of the world in general, while they happily live under the umbrella of the protection it gives us all. Those sort of people should try living in a society where you can be shot or jailed for airing your views.
The premise for any conspiracy theory is a firm belief that your government would of it suited them, lie or withhold information from the masses as a means of furthering an agenda.
For example the government tell us that speed cameras are used to reduce accidents and deaths on our roads.
However I know someone who believes that it's just a form of stealth tax that has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with making money.
Bingo.
A conspiracy theory albeit a fairly innocuous example but you get the point.
Personally I think that being sceptical and doubtful of the information we are fed is a perfectly legitimate pursuit.
Ruthless dictators come to power and commit terrible atrocities when the people have utter faith.
Hitler himself said it was "good for us that the people don't think"
In any case we all have at least one conspiracy theory that others might find ridiculous.
I suspect if you were being honest you'd say you have one or two, or maybe you really do believe that authority never lies.

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Re: Latest Covid 19 News for Motorcyclists in England

Postby King Herald » Thu May 21, 2020 7:43 am

In any case we all have at least one conspiracy theory that others might find ridiculous.
I suspect if you were being honest you'd say you have one or two, or maybe you really do believe that authority never lies.

Oh yes, I definitely have a few ideas, religion being one of the biggest conspiracy theories ever, governments and corporate greed starting all wars etc.
But they aren't conspiracy theories really, more like facts. :grin:

However, to automatically and vehemently disagree with everything that society in general believes is the norm is more on the obsessive than the exceptional.

There are people on forums, Facebook etc, who automatically roll out the usual 'bloody tory government' at EVERY issue, drama or disaster in the media. If you point out that it was a labour policy, or whatever, they suddenly change tack and find a different way to complain bitterly. I'm thinking it is more a bitter resentment of life in general than any particular logical stance.

The people who complain about speed cameras are usually the ones who like to speed, to break the law, and hate getting caught. O:)
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Re: Latest Covid 19 News for Motorcyclists in England

Postby Mjolinor » Thu May 21, 2020 10:02 am


The people who complain about speed cameras are usually the ones who like to speed, to break the law, and hate getting caught. O:)
I tend to think that the ones that complain most are the ones that get caught doing 34 mph in a 30. That is totally unreasonable and should not be allowed. In my experience the people that get caught actually speeding tend to accept it as one of the risks of speeding.

When you start asking why England this and that you should remember that England has no government of its own unlike the other three countries we have to do what they tell us, they do what they decide for themselves.

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Re: Latest Covid 19 News for Motorcyclists in England

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Thu May 21, 2020 10:06 am

If people who follow conspiracy theories treated them with a tenth of the scepticism they reserve for the other side (whatever that happens to be) of the disputed subject, then most conspiracy theories would never get beyond the head of the person that thinks them up.

I've absolutely no objection qo querying the 'official' version of anything, I just wish people would do some basic (and more to the point unbiased) research before passing on inflamatory and often ridiculous theories as 'fact'.

To cite the current example... The old saw that speed cameras are a 'stealth tax (whatever that is) is put around time and again and panders to the prejudices of the people who object to being told how fast they can go. The figures are available if you look at them. There is no enormous profit being made from speed cameras. The income from fines is more or less defrayed over the costs of installing and maintaining the camera and processing systems along with the costs of enforcing the fines. If you're concerned about the siting of a particular camera and whether it is justified then you are quite entitled to know the rational, complete with before and after figures to show whether or not there has been a reduction in casualties from that site (if you believe the figures of course #-o )...

There's an old saying (well not that old really) 'The truth is out there!'. Yes it is but in 99% of cases it's quite banal and not very different from what we are being told in the first place.

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Re: Latest Covid 19 News for Motorcyclists in England

Postby Mjolinor » Thu May 21, 2020 12:35 pm

This road in Burnley was a 40 limit all of my life:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.78059 ... 053,19.29z

Not fund raising that they dropped it to 30 and for a year every day there were policemen with speed cameras then. :)

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Re: Latest Covid 19 News for Motorcyclists in England

Postby CharlieVictor » Thu May 21, 2020 2:50 pm

Personally I think that being sceptical and doubtful of the information we are fed is a perfectly legitimate pursuit.

Absolutely Andy.
That's me when I buy a used bike, and when I say it aloud I'm usually mocked for being paranoid, by the "most people are honest" brigade... 8-[
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Re: Latest Covid 19 News for Motorcyclists in England

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Thu May 21, 2020 9:16 pm

This road in Burnley was a 40 limit all of my life:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.78059 ... 053,19.29z

Not fund raising that they dropped it to 30 and for a year every day there were policemen with speed cameras then. :)


“However the high accident rate, level of development and use along this section suggests that a 30mph speed limit may be more appropriate than the existing 40mph limit.” - Lancashire Telegraph - 27th July 2011. But, of course, thats all lies I suppose...

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Re: Latest Covid 19 News for Motorcyclists in England

Postby Mjolinor » Thu May 21, 2020 9:31 pm

This road in Burnley was a 40 limit all of my life:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.78059 ... 053,19.29z

Not fund raising that they dropped it to 30 and for a year every day there were policemen with speed cameras then. :)


“However the high accident rate, level of development and use along this section suggests that a 30mph speed limit may be more appropriate than the existing 40mph limit.” - Lancashire Telegraph - 27th July 2011. But, of course, thats all lies I suppose...

Rob
I am not saying that it should not be 30 MPH. I am saying that it was wrong to monitor it so severely when they changed it. Of course the accidents will have significantly reduced but dare I suggest that is may be because the speed limit reduced, or should I hold the police view and say it was because the police stuck speed cameras up there?

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Re: Latest Covid 19 News for Motorcyclists in England

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Thu May 21, 2020 9:39 pm

This road in Burnley was a 40 limit all of my life:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.78059 ... 053,19.29z

Not fund raising that they dropped it to 30 and for a year every day there were policemen with speed cameras then. :)


“However the high accident rate, level of development and use along this section suggests that a 30mph speed limit may be more appropriate than the existing 40mph limit.” - Lancashire Telegraph - 27th July 2011. But, of course, thats all lies I suppose...

Rob
I am not saying that it should not be 30 MPH. I am saying that it was wrong to monitor it so severely when they changed it. Of course the accidents will have significantly reduced but dare I suggest that is may be because the speed limit reduced, or should I hold the police view and say it was because the police stuck speed cameras up there?


It's quite normal to concentrate on a newly applied speed limit. It does so improve the eyesight of drivers in relation to the new speed limit signs. You'd probably find that there was a policy of advise for minor infractions. If the attention continued for more than a couple of months, then that's a sure sign that drivers were still taking the p1ss.

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Re: Latest Covid 19 News for Motorcyclists in England

Postby Mjolinor » Thu May 21, 2020 9:45 pm





“However the high accident rate, level of development and use along this section suggests that a 30mph speed limit may be more appropriate than the existing 40mph limit.” - Lancashire Telegraph - 27th July 2011. But, of course, thats all lies I suppose...

Rob
I am not saying that it should not be 30 MPH. I am saying that it was wrong to monitor it so severely when they changed it. Of course the accidents will have significantly reduced but dare I suggest that is may be because the speed limit reduced, or should I hold the police view and say it was because the police stuck speed cameras up there?


It's quite normal to concentrate on a newly applied speed limit. It does so improve the eyesight of drivers in relation to the new speed limit signs. You'd probably find that there was a policy of advise for minor infractions. If the attention continued for more than a couple of months, then that's a sure sign that drivers were still taking the p1ss.

Rob
But it wasn't fund raising at all. I am sorry, that is just total bull.

Half the population of Burnley got endorsements from day one. It never got me but then again I don't speed. It got my sister twice and my dad. Both of whom struggle to get to the speed limit. My sister is the only person I know that can exceed the published figures for MPG she is so docile. :)


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