Bungled burglary

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andys
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Bungled burglary

Postby andys » Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:11 pm

Today, in London, a 78 year old Man returned to his home to find two intruders committing burglary.
One of them held the pensioner in his kitchen using a screwdriver as a weapon, while the other continued the burglary.
A struggle occurred between the pensioner and the 37 year old burglar, who received a stab wound.
He was found nearby and rushed to hospital where he died from his injury.
The other one fled the scene.
The pensioner has been arrested on suspicion of murder.
Yep you read that right.
As this forum is predominantly American, I was just wondering what you guys make of this.
Here in the UK, the law is being adapted to protect the criminal more than the victim.
This is a blatant example.
It seems that now, we are not even allowed to protect ourselves in our own homes.

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Re: Bungled burglary

Postby boxerman » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:02 pm

Hate to tell you Andy but this is a UK based forum... tho we cater for all.

I would imagine such an arrest would be required standard procedure - depending on actual circumstance he may or may not get charged.
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Re: Bungled burglary

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:07 pm

Andy,

1) This forum is run in the UK and it's membership is mainly UK based. There are a few American members but the membership is most certainly not predominantly American.

2) Comments like this based on sensationalised and possibly biased press reports are really not helpful.

3) The death of a human being, whether a burglar or not, is a very serious matter and needs to be investigated thoroughly.

4) Arrest does not imply guilt and it most certainly does not constitute a punishment (no matter what the media says or hints to the contrary). Arrest is a means of securing evidence by questioning and by enabling various forensic procedures which would be compromised otherwise. Such evidence is essential in ascertaining what actually happened and it's loss would be severely criticised.

5) Arrest does not necessarily involve being handcuffed and thrown bodily into a cell. In a case like this, unless the person concerned was completely uncooperative, I would expect the arrest to be carried out with consideration and with a full explanation of the need for the action taken.

6) The fact of arrest gives an arrestee a whole range of rights aimed at ensuring he/she is properly dealt with.

7) It may be that the death of the burglar was entirely justified ... or it may not. It is not for uninformed pundits and press to make that decision, especially within hours of the event and before any real investigation of the circumstances has taken place.

8) The age of the person concerned and the fact that he is a 'pensioner' is entirely irrelevant.

Wouldn't it be better to wait a little and find out what really happened before jumping on the anti-establishment bandwagon?

Rob
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Re: Bungled burglary

Postby bwprice100 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:26 pm

It's on the BBC web site.


Hither Green 'burglar' stabbing: Man, 78, arrested - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43639183

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Re: Bungled burglary

Postby gogs01 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:09 pm


Comments like this based on sensationalised and possibly biased press reports are really not helpful.

Wouldn't it be better to wait a little and find out what really happened before jumping on the anti-establishment bandwagon?

Rob
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Re: Bungled burglary

Postby windmill john » Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:32 pm

Having just listened to the news, it looks like a neighbour’s testimony might point to them not having a right to be there.

Okay, still jumping in a bit early, if someone is committing burglary , they should have No rights.
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Re: Bungled burglary

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:51 am


Okay, still jumping in a bit early, if someone is committing burglary , they should have No rights.
So... in your opinion, if you find someone on your property, you have a 'right' to kill them?

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Re: Bungled burglary

Postby windmill john » Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:17 pm

Rob, I don’t want to fall out and this could be an emotive topic.

But if someone breaks in, if something happens to them accidentally, there should be no come back on the home owner.
This is my feeling, I don’t want to upset others.

I personally think generally we are weak on law and order. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a woos and I believe in towing the line.
But I’m sick of hearing ‘oh he’s known to the police, so is his family, they are always doing wrong”!!!
I don’t know the answer and the prisons are full. I know what I want to do with them....
Let’s take a simple one. A policeman asks you a question, answer it. If I were a policeman and someone gave me an earful, there should be a penalty.

But as I said, there’s are my thoughts and I’m glad I live in a quiet area.
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Re: Bungled burglary

Postby milleplod » Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:46 pm


Okay, still jumping in a bit early, if someone is committing burglary , they should have No rights.
So... in your opinion, if you find someone on your property, you have a 'right' to kill them?

Rob
No, that would be ridiculous, obviously.

For a while now, the use of what might previously have been regarded as disproportionate force in 'intruder' circumstances has been lawful. It was ruled that, rather than look at a person's reaction to a home-invasion set of circumstances through the dispassionate eyes of someone to whom it wasn't happening (as was the case previously), it should rather be viewed through the eyes of the homeowner confronted with, for example, an armed and potentially aggressive intruder. That put a whole different light on how a householder might lawfully be able to defend him/herself and others in the property. You can use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances as you believe them to be in order to defend yourself, your property or to prevent a crime.

In that sense, the 'rights' of the intruder are somewhat diminished.

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Re: Bungled burglary

Postby bwprice100 » Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:53 pm

It is very complex situation and l wouldn't want to be the person who has to make the final judgement but at the end someone is now dead.

I just think that at what point does the burglar forfeit his right to life, at the point of the crime taking place or at a latter time at some one elses choosing?

Perhaps because the prisons are full we should consider a cull of criminals because, after all they have given up their right to live as soon as they committed the crime.

Is the death penalty to be applied to all crime or just those that are reported in the right wing press or for that matter the left wing press. Maybe we should make a list but check it twice?

I was badly assaulted about two years ago whilst sitting in my car and ended up in hospital do l now have the right to kill that person or has that person not lost all there rights?

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Re: Bungled burglary

Postby milleplod » Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:10 pm

It is very complex situation and l wouldn't want to be the person who has to make the final judgement but at the end someone is now dead.

I just think that at what point does the burglar forfeit his right to life, at the point of the crime taking place or at a latter time at some one elses choosing?

Perhaps because the prisons are full we should consider a cull of criminals because, after all they have given up their right to live as soon as they committed the crime.

Is the death penalty to be applied to all crime or just those that are reported in the right wing press or for that matter the left wing press. Maybe we should make a list but check it twice?

I was badly assaulted about two years ago whilst sitting in my car and ended up in hospital do l now have the right to kill that person or has that person not lost all there rights?

Brian

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Perhaps at the point at which the criminal has put the homeowner in fear for his/her life? I agree that its complex, but at least the law now takes into account, quite rightly, that when confronted in your own home, by an armed intruder, its reasonable to properly defend yourself, rather than to have your actions viewed with the hindsight of a person who wasn't there, and then be punished for them.

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Re: Bungled burglary

Postby DEEP DIVER » Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:14 pm

I would just set the wife on them.
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Re: Bungled burglary

Postby windmill john » Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:18 pm

Just listening again on the news, I really do not understand how anyone can defend them!
The relative saying what a lovely man he was!!!
They should not get airtime.
You broke the law, reap the whirlwind.
Sorry Rob, if I sound blunt or unsympathetic, my views.
Please don’t let let this thread turn into where you draw the line though.

And I agree with Barry, I daren't cross my wife!
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Re: Bungled burglary

Postby milleplod » Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:37 pm

The deceased was under investigation for a similar burglary at an elderly person's home. I've read that he was also wanted for a robbery last year, but can't find corroboration for that.

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Re: RE: Bungled burglary

Postby signlynx » Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:06 pm

Today, in London, a 78 year old Man returned to his home to find two intruders committing burglary.
One of them held the pensioner in his kitchen using a screwdriver as a weapon, while the other continued the burglary.
A struggle occurred between the pensioner and the 37 year old burglar, who received a stab wound.
He was found nearby and rushed to hospital where he died from his injury.
The other one fled the scene.
The pensioner has been arrested on suspicion of murder.
Yep you read that right.
As this forum is predominantly American, I was just wondering what you guys make of this.
Here in the UK, the law is being adapted to protect the criminal more than the victim.
This is a blatant example.
It seems that now, we are not even allowed to protect ourselves in our own homes.
In Ireland we have many examples of the elderly being attacked in their own home by burglars out on a day hunt from large towns & cities. On more than one occasion old farmers simply shoot the intruder and laws are currently being adjusted to allow one to protect oneself in your own home where life is threatened. Can't happen fast enough.
Blow them away, I say!


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Re: RE: Bungled burglary

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:40 pm

In Ireland we have many examples of the elderly being attacked in their own home by burglars out on a day hunt from large towns & cities. On more than one occasion old farmers simply shoot the intruder and laws are currently being adjusted to allow one to protect oneself in your own home where life is threatened. Can't happen fast enough.
Blow them away, I say!


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In the UK, it has always been the case that a person can protect his or herself where his or her life is threatened (whether or not it's in the home). It's called 'Self Defence'. Self Defence is an absolute defence to a charge of murder... but... before that defence can be proven, the facts have to be put before a judge and jury and the FACT (note capitals!) of self defence needs to be established. To do that, there has to be an investigation and evidence has to be gathered.

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Re: Bungled burglary

Postby boxerman » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:30 pm

He has been released without charge.
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Re: Bungled burglary

Postby gogs01 » Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:29 am

He has been released without charge.
Maybe that's the correct course of action in this case.
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Re: Bungled burglary

Postby Rob Frankhamr » Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:20 am

I have to say that the Met have done a highly commendable job to get to the point where he can be released in such a short time. Hopefully that means that the case is quite clear cut and the matter can be put to bed without too much further ado.

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Re: Bungled burglary

Postby CharlieVictor » Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:05 pm

Many US states have what is called a "castle law", which gives the owner of a property every right to defend himself, by any means necessary, against any individual who has trespassed.
It's very straightforward, although some situations have caused for concern (Man shot neighbor whom he suspected to be his wife's lover, man shot man who came to buy his motorcycle but just wanted to kick tires..). Most times things are crystal-clear. You are on my property without my authorization, it's at your own risk.

Yet in the civilized world (hey, just kidding) the rule for self defence is usually threefold: the imminent threat on one's life, the impossibility to flee, the proportionality of the defense to the attack.
Hence shooting a fleeing burglar armed with a screwdriver is considered murder for instance, since a) threat is no longer imminent, b) the use of a firearm is disproportionate to the weapon used by the aggressor.
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Re: Bungled burglary

Postby windmill john » Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:42 pm

Many US states have what is called a "castle law", which gives the owner of a property every right to defend himself, by any means necessary, against any individual who has trespassed.
It's very straightforward, although some situations have caused for concern (Man shot neighbor whom he suspected to be his wife's lover, man shot man who came to buy his motorcycle but just wanted to kick tires..). Most times things are crystal-clear. You are on my property without my authorization, it's at your own risk.

Yet in the civilized world (hey, just kidding) the rule for self defence is usually threefold: the imminent threat on one's life, the impossibility to flee, the proportionality of the defense to the attack.
Hence shooting a fleeing burglar armed with a screwdriver is considered murder for instance, since a) threat is no longer imminent, b) the use of a firearm is disproportionate to the weapon used by the aggressor.

Only disagree with part b. If an intruder is in my house, I’d hope to have a ‘bigger’ weapon than him, I’m not a gladiator, I’m defending my home/life.
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Re: Bungled burglary

Postby CharlieVictor » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:19 am

Fundamentally, so do I. It's the old adage "better judged by twelve than carried by six".
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Re: Bungled burglary

Postby andys » Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:45 pm

Andy,

8) The age of the person concerned and the fact that he is a 'pensioner' is entirely irrelevant.

Rob
Oh I beg to differ.
These people were part of a criminal family who made a career out of targeting the elderly.
Known as the Vincent clan, one of the uncles once stated on Facebook "a pensioner a day keeps the bank balance at bay"
Perhaps if you have an elderly relative who falls victim to low life's like this, as I have you might feel far less compassionate towards them.
When my Aunt was burgled she was marched around the house to get her valuables by one of them while the other cooked a fry up in her kitchen.
She was too ashamed to phone the police and the crime was discovered by a neighbour the next day.
She died of a heart attack later that week.
And you want me to feel sorry for the scrote who died in this attack.
Not a chance.

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Re: Bungled burglary

Postby CharlieVictor » Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:24 pm

I must agree with Andy... Attacking the elderly is an aggravating factor (morally and legally), and has devastating consequences on the victim. I used to work a VICAP (Violent Crime Assistance Program) back in the day with a Canadian police force, and I saw it first hand.
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Re: Bungled burglary

Postby milleplod » Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:32 pm

The scrote deserved what he got, end of. His thieving was a lifestyle choice, like that of his family of similarly-minded lowlife scum who regard non-'travellers', particularly the elderly, as fair game. They have zero respect for those not of their ilk, and zero respect for the law. Its their 'culture'. Anyone who thinks like this - 'An OAP a day keeps ur bank balance at bay. The old b******s deserve everything they get.' should be taken off the streets as a preventative measure. And yes, similar bastards had over £1k off my dear old mum, so I've personal experience of their 'culture'. I was lucky in a way though - I spotted their van in a local car park a week or so after ripping my mum off. I put a screwdriver through all four tyre sidewalls and brake fluid all down one side of it. **** 'em, they reap what they sow.

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